Can any one intelligent explain this christian "logic"?

Question: Can any one intelligent explain this christian "logic"!?

I see this argument all the time!. If a painting exists, someone had to create it, and if they exist, something had to create them!. The logic starts out fine but then flies off into insanity at the end!. But for the sake of this argument, we will assume this is true!. So a car or painting has to be designed by a being!. This is logical and true!. Because the being exists it had to be created by another being!. I can see where this would be the logic of a child but its just not right!. Assuming this is the case and assuming a god does exist, because he can create, who or what created him!?Www@QuestionHome@Com

Best Answer - Chosen by Asker:

The problem of the painter is in linear thinking to determine the first cause!. If I am the painter, who created me!? My mother and my father!? (There is no longer one creator involved, but two)!. Then we must ask who created my mother and father which would be my grandparents!. (maternal grandmother, maternal grandfather, paternal grandmother, paternal grandfather)!. Now the creator of the painting has expanded exponentially from one inititial creator, to 2 subcreators to 4 subsubcreators!. Of course, we can now look at who created my grandparents and find the 8 co-creators for them!.

If we substitute a god as the painter, we have the same exponential expansion of creators!.

Despite the humanly manufactured theory of gods, there is no evidence that any human has encountered something that has always existed without beginning and without end!.

Scientifically, the notion of a Jesus is scientifically implausible!. To produce a child, a god would need DNA material in addition to the mother of the child as with any human!. A child with the identical DNA to their mother would be their genetic equal and be a female!. For a Jesus to be human, the child would need two sets of DNA that have been merged which would identify the paternity and the maternity of the child!. If no such DNA pair exists, the a Jesus would not be human!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

You assume that this God needed to be created, if this God created everything then surely Time falls under the Everything Category!. You can also look at time as a simple illusion, due to our lack of comprehension and understanding of nothing we cannot imagine a point where "time" does not exist, we use "time" to simply state that events WILL occur!. If nothing ever changed there would be no concept for time!. As far as origin, it is as logical to believe that the universe just suddenly happened as is the existence of a God or deity!.

If you cannot see logic in this then you, my good friend, do not think logically!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

All I know is that if those who have the ability to create and write down religion used their talents to create and write down the Tax Code, the book would be every bit as thick as the Bible, but there would be absoltely zero loop-holes!.

Seriously though, Christian "logic" is about as deep as "I know you are, but what am I!? Infinity!"

Epistimology is the branch of Philosophy that deals with perceptions and knowledge!.

http://en!.wikipedia!.org/wiki/Epistemolog!.!.!.

Its arguments are basically along the lines of "If our senses are falliable, how do we know what truth is!?", and such silly things as cogito ergo sum and "if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound!?" (to which the answer is NO, by the way)!.

Kant reasoned primarily in his work Critique of Pure Reason that the only a priori empirical evidence we know to be true, that is stuff we know to be true without first percieving it, is the concept of Space and Time!. The reason being that Space and Time are not perceptions in of themselves but are required qualities of a perception!. Ie, an object exists in space and in time, but where that object exists and when that object exists are not qualities of the object iteself!.

Therefore it can be surmized that space and time has ALWAYS existed!. And since you cant have "always" without Time, and you cant have "existed" without space, this must be true!.

Likewise, "existance" must always exist!. There can never be nothing!. Ever!. So therefore if existance exists it must exists somewhere and so therefore Space and Time must also exist in order for something to exist in!.

Did your head explode yet!? Cool!. Feels good, huh!? Kind of like a Big Bang!. So anyway once it is determined that existence exists then therefore something must exist, and it would be at the most basic level some sort of building block for the universe, ie insterstellar hydrogen or threads, or strings or whatever!. Since that matter or energy must exist then also by nature it is going to begin to behave and react, and creates the laws of physics, chemistry, etc!.

You give anything enough Time and Space (ie infinity) and anything can and WILL happen!. Is all we are one big cosmic accident!? Yea probably, but who cares!. It sucks!. I dont know what dumbass came up with the idea of Christianity to begin with but the whole Heaven concept doesnt seem like very much fun to me!. Neither does Hell for that matter!. Sitting around, praising God, being forever!. Sounds boring!. Personally, I'm looking for a re-boot!. Yea, re-incarnation!. Thats the hot ticket!. I wanna do it all over again!. Faster, backwards !.!. hands high in the air like Life was like The Viper at Six Flags!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

You'll never find the answer here!. On Earth I mean!. It's like asking what came before the big bang!. Why did everything just start to expand!? No one knows the answer!.
The theory that everything was caused by something, going infinitely back is a rather disconcerting one because it will never end!. You can imagine it as a circle where the last event caused the first and so on into infinty because time, as we know, isn't linear!.
Or you can just accept that God was there and He is the start!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

This question will never be answered correctly!.!.!.!.Christians will give you this answer "The bible says god created man in his image and it sounds like a fairytale but you have to have faith in god"!.!.!.!.kind of a watered-down theory!.!.!.!.What it all boils down to is just create a belief that works for you and run with it!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

there is no logical reasoning for that belief, that's why they call it faith!. but i Personally think most of the ideals of the religion sort of hurt there judgment and reasoning part of there brain!. they wont accept other ideas unless it goes along with the bible, which was not written by god or jesus!. ex: evolution!. there is far more proof that this happens than there is that god exists, yet some like to believe the world is only 6000 years old!. not very Intelligent right!?Www@QuestionHome@Com

God is created by delusional man to explain things in reality that they do not understand!.

God is just an imaginary being that exist in the delusional mind!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

This seems like the chicken-or-the-egg logic!. Which came first the chicken, or the egg!? However, this type of 'logic' is actually a fallacy!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

You would have to grasp a concept of infinity, which you're obviously having trouble doing!.

As above, so below, mate!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

There is no logical answer to that!. He is simply there, at least that's how they believe!. They don't dwell on where "He" came from because then their religion would implode!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

Burn the painting and ask: "Who created what!?"Www@QuestionHome@Com

I can't give you an absolute argument, but consider this!.!.!.

Many scientists who do not believe in god will argue existence all the way back to the big bang, where a particle exploded and energy expanded, eventually forming in the universe today!.

But, if you back it up even further, where did the particle, or the physical elements involved in an explosion come from!? Even moreso, where did the area known as "space" within the universe come from!? Even if someone believes that before the big bang, there was just the large empty, possibly infinite void of space, where did that come from!? To me, it seems if nothing was created, there would be just that - nothing!. Its difficult for me to relay what I mean by the true idea of nothing, but - if nothing were created - there would be no particle or black area of space - just nothing existing at all - ever - like the exact opposite of infinity!. Since that is not the case, I believe that something greater than us was responsible for the creation of SOMETHING at SOME POINT!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

I beleve God does exist! Though your are caught up in your way of realative thinking and you seem as if there was someone before God, I honestly don't beieve in that logic of thinking!.
I believe God had Angels and these Angels have Devine power before man was created!. The universe was already in some form of existance before man came along!. As the Earth and other planets where being formed, God Crated this earth and in time created HUmans in his own precise time!. Gods Time and ours is diffrent! He is Omni-Present wether its in a Spiritual form or a physical form!.!.!.
In the end of time! I believe we will all Understand or come to an-understanding and find out all these answers to our question's!. I would think my questions in front of God would not be in mind any longer but just Joy of knowing his presence!.!.!.!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

Science is taking off!. It's studying spirituality!. You don't seem to realize that the philosophers of the past were going for the big stuff and found a lot!. Science is just there to test the things that they say they found and it is testing as superior, outside the box!. Science is to be open minded and test!. It's not a body of knowledge, but a method to testing and everything can be tested!. Einstein said that, "The only real valuable thing is intuition" and that he got his theories from intuition!. Isn't that inspiration, revelation and vision logic checked by linear logic and probabilities!? They seem to say that there is another dimension that only follows the rules of this dimension by analogy!. All thinking is by analogy!. And that dimension created this dimension where things must be created!. In that dimension nothing has to be created, as it already is!. Sort of like black matter that is invisible and makes us 95% of the universe!. Particles go into and out of existence!. No magic, just rules and forces we didn't know about!. Now we do know there is more and it fits with what the intuitives had said!. Don't paint everyone for thousands of years as totally ignorant!. Isn't that a bit self serving!. It is characteristic of left brain thinking to be blind and arrogant!. Don't join that crowd as they are supposed to be your enemies!. You know!. The close minded!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

My answer: No one created God!. That's where it stops!. We can't understand it!. God created EVERYTHING--the universe itself, all the space, everything!. He is the Creator!. So everything we know has been created, everything we know has a beginning and end!. There is absolutely nothing on this Earth that was always there and will always be there!. So when this concept comes up of an un-created God, we can't understand it!. However, your inability to understand something doesn't make it untrue!. If a kid doesn't understand a math problem, does that mean the math problem isn't there!?

Copied and pasted from:
http://www!.godandscience!.org/apologetics!.!.!.
Who created God!? It is an age-old question that has plagued all those who like to think about the big questions!. Having grown up as an agnostic non-Christian, it provided me with a potential reason why there might not be any god!. Various religions tend to solve the problem in different ways!. The LDS church (Mormonism) says that the God (Elohim) to whom we are accountable had a father god, then grew up on a planet as a man, and progressed to become a god himself!. Many other religions have claimed that gods beget other gods!. Of course the problem with this idea is how did the first god get here!? This problem of infinite regression invalidates such religions!. Christianity claims that God has always existed!. Is this idea even possible!? Does science address such issues!?

Christianity's answer
Christianity answers the question of who created God in the very first verse of the very first book, Genesis:

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1)

This verse tells us that God was acting before time when He created the universe!. Many other verses from the New Testament tells us that God was acting before time began, and so, He created time, along with the other dimensions of our universe:

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began!. (1 Corinthians 2:7)
This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9)
The hope of eternal life, which God!.!.!. promised before the beginning of time (Titus 1:2)
To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever!. Amen!. (Jude 1:25)
The idea that God created time, along with the physical universe, is not just some wacky modern Christian interpretation of the Bible!. Justin Martyr, a second century Christian apologist, in his Hortatory Address to the Greeks, said that Plato got the idea that time was created along with the universe from Moses:

"And from what source did Plato draw the information that time was created along with the heavens!? For he wrote thus: “Time, accordingly, was created along with the heavens; in order that, coming into being together, they might also be together dissolved, if ever their dissolution should take place!.” Had he not learned this from the divine history of Moses!?"1

God exists in timeless eternity
How does God acting before time began get around the problem of God's creation!? There are two possible interpretations of these verses!. One is that God exists outside of time!. Since we live in a universe of cause and effect, we naturally assume that this is the only way in which any kind of existence can function!. However, the premise is false!. Without the dimension of time, there is no cause and effect, and all things that could exist in such a realm would have no need of being caused, but would have always existed!. Therefore, God has no need of being created, but, in fact, created the time dimension of our universe specifically for a reason - so that cause and effect would exist for us!. However, since God created time, cause and effect would never apply to His existence!.

God exists in multiple dimension of time
The second interpretation is that God exists in more than one dimension of time!. Things that exist in one dimension of time are restricted to time's arrow and are confined to cause and effect!. However, two dimensions of time form a plane of time, which has no beginning and no end and is not restricted to any single direction!. A being that exists in at least two dimension of time can travel anywhere in time and yet never had a beginning, since a plane of time has no starting point!. Either interpretation leads one to the conclusion that God has no need of having been created!.

Why can't the universe be eternal!?
The idea that God can be eternal leads us to the idea that maybe the universe is eternal, and, therefore, God doesn't need to exist at all!. Actually, this was the prevalent belief of atheists before the observational data of the 20th century strongly refuted the idea that the universe was eternal!. This fact presented a big dilemma for atheists, since a non-eternal universe implied that it must have been caused!. (can't c/p whole article, click link)Www@QuestionHome@Com

perhaps our way of thinking about these types of questions is restricted by the framework which has been constructed through our socialization for us to think, and therefore the framework is unnecessarily limited possibly rendering the do or don't, is or isn't, always cause and then effect man-made!? concepts incorrect!. What if we had never learned anything from anyone- then how would we think- must there be a cause!?

--------------------------------------!.!.!.

Interdependent Co-Arising (from Buddhism):

Q) In the Heart Sutra what is meant by “emptiness is form, form is emptiness”!?

A) ICA = Interdependent Co-Arising

Emptiness means ICA!.
Form means phenomena that depend on conditions to exist!.

ICA ‘gives birth’ to form!.
Form ‘gives birth’ to ICA!.

THIS ANSWERS THE QUESTION ‘WHAT CAME FIRST, THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG!

You can’t have ICA without anything to arise, and without the conditions (which are forms) to create new forms, so ICA is dependent on forms!.

You can’t have forms without ICA because forms are a mixture of many different conditions which themselves are mixtures of other conditions!.

So:

ICA depends on forms!.
Forms depend on ICA!.

So:

No ICA (emptiness) = no form!.
No form = no ICA (emptiness)!.

So:

Form is ICA (emptiness) and ICA (emptiness) is form!.

O
(oo)
(_)
/ \

--------------------------------------!.!.!.

this may be confusing for those unfamilier with Buddhism!.
contact me with ques if you want to!.!.!. maybe i can help : )Www@QuestionHome@Com

The logic is that it is improbable for a painting or a car to be created randomly because of the intricacies innvolved!. The same goes for the universe!. It is improbable for the universe to have formed by itself because of the intricacies involved!. It's not that hard to understand really!. However, after reading your additional details I can see that there is no reason in even answering this question because you have already closed your mind!. You refuse to see that someone who believes something other than yourself could possibly have any knowledge to impart to you and therefore your knowledge has stopped where it is!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

Here's an answer from a Christian:

This "logic" is not sound!. Yes, it is true that if a painting exists then someone created it, but when it comes to who or what created the painter, one can't make the leap that if a painter created a work of art then someone or something must have created the artist!.

Your belief that life has always existed in some form makes perfect sense!. The problem is Darwin's theory of evolution is now being sold as FACT rather than theory (despite the countless holes that have been shot into that theory for over a century)!. The theory of evolution claims that human beings evolved from apes but cannot adequately explain how -- especially in light of the differences in DNA structure!. So I can believe that life learns to adapt to its environment, but I have a hard time buying the idea that life evolves!.

SIDE NOTE: I find it interesting that people who believe that the human race was created by a random conflux of events, trillions of which would have had to happen in the exact right order and at the exact right time, like to point their fingers at those who believe in God and say they're (fill in the blank: stupid, crazy, fanatics, zealots) for believing in an all-powerful being that created the universe and everything in it!. Which is more ludicrous -- belief in intelligent design or belief that our entire existence is based entirely on chance events when the odds against ANY type of life ever existing anywhere in the universe are so astronomically high that it's beyond virtually impossible!?Www@QuestionHome@Com

The words "intelligent", "Christian", and "logic" just simply can't go into one sentence together!.Www@QuestionHome@Com