agnostics - What do you think of this concept?

Question: A question for atheists/agnostics - What do you think of this concept!?

Hello!. =) I used to be a devoted Christian, but as I grow as a person, I'm starting to question everything more and more!.!.!. and I now consider myself more spiritual than religious!.!.!. bordering on agnostic!. I just want to know what you think of this idea about the existance of a divine being:

According to the basic laws of science, every cause must have an effect, right!? The little things, and the big things, as well!. When you follow that all the way back to the very, very beginning of everything!.!.!. in order for the law to be true, doesn't there have to be a definite beginning!? An eternal, an infinite, something to set everything into motion!? How can the laws of cause/effect be true if, at one point in time, there was NO cause (in other words - spontaneous generation)!? Wouldn't a divine being be the necessary constant to make the law work!?

I'm not sure if I explained that clearly enough, but tell me what you think!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

Best Answer - Chosen by Asker:

While reading your question I was thinking!.!.!.!.wow I could of written this queston!.
Up until 15 years ago I had a very simple, yet powerful faith and I was super church woman!. Evangelical even!.

I have had to learn to NOT feel quilt because I have progressed in my own spiritual quest and have come to a conculsion that my mother and other relitives would have a fit over!.

My questions started with the realization that my so called "Godly" husband was a total farce!. Nothing was real!. All smoke and mirrors!. The next thing that lead me to my new spiritual journey was the death of my 21 year old son six years ago!. What a jolt that was!.

To give you the short version of my journey and current peace of spirituality is this!.!.!.!.!.!.!.!.
Religion is man made!. Why would me, blonde, educated, American, uppermiddle class, be so privledged to have the "ONLY WAY" to God the creator!. !?!? When so many generations before me have had their personal version of what faith and worship are!. Why suddenly the circus sort of churches or the staunch mystical type churches!.!.!.!.!.!.what does it really matter!?!?
To me there are many paths to the same destination!. OUCH!.
Don't tell my mother LOL!. I struggled with that realization for awhile becasue I had my heart and soul invested in God the Father- God the Son & God the Holy Spirit!. Thus, if people who never hear of the gospel that is my personal truth and faith, were dammed!. How can a God possibably be so narrow in HIS connection to humans!?!?!? It is n't God who is narrow it is humans!.
Finally I realized that God the Father is the Same as the Son and Spirit!. Thus, if a people who never hear about my sort of religion how can it be possible for million of souls dumped in the pits of hell!. (hell now that is another subject)!. !?

This realization lead me to realize that to me Christ is my connection to God the creator of the universe!. Others call the creator other names taking other paths!. That was freeing to me!. I could let go of the guilt of feeling that I personally had to reach the entire planet!. And, so what if a group of people call God a "tree"!? It is between them and the creator!. It surely isn't me who is in charge of what is what in the universe!

It is very interesting that in all (well most) culturles have a creation story, a world wide flood story, a God, a idea of the eternal life!. Why should my personal faith be that of the billions of souls out there!? Who am I do be the authority!?

When my son passed away!. I had huge issues with his earthly body!. I still do!. I grew him with in me afterall- I would spend time at night just looking at the night sky in amazment concerning the universe!. We are so tiny compared to creation!. I look at that sky and outloud ask if my son knows and understands that mysteries of the universe!.

I think it is important to acknowledge the fact that the more I know and understand the less I know and understand!.

I am not anti church or anti Christian!. I am just a very different person that I used to be!. I wish I had figured out my faith long ago!. But, then I would not be who I am now!.

I read Tao and I real Budist devotionals!. I have NO quilt in that!.
I am NOT compermising my belief in God!. I am just open to more and not so narrow in my opinions!.

Concerning the beginning of it all!.!.!.!.!.!.!.that boggles my mind and I can't deal with it!. If feels like my brain will explode with the wonder of it all!. How can there be something from nothing!? What was the oriign of the universe!. I makd my peace with that by telling myself that there is NO way I can figure that out in this lifetime!. And that as a human I am in the restraints of time!. The universe probably has a variety of laws of science!. Who knows, we might even live in a place where time is layered!. I am possibably already in eternity with my son and my dad!.

To me it is foolish to think that our earth and our lives are the know -all ulitimite place in the universe!. We just might be a speck of dust on a speak of dust on a speck of dust on the back of some strange universe animal!.

To me science and religion go hand in hand!. Each proving the vality of each other!. How can there NOT be a higher power!?!?!?!?

Amazing isn't it!Www@QuestionHome@Com

You could have total nothingness at first and then have something pop into existance and start the process of cause and effect!. Of course that brings up the question of how did something just pop into existance!? Well I guess thats choice and free will at its best!. You try to trap some thing in a box it eventualy finds its way out!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

Maybe the cause and effect chain goes back forever!? And if not, then how would using God to terminate it work, because then what caused God to cause the universe!? And if you could use God as the first cause, then why couldn't you use anything else as the first cause!?Www@QuestionHome@Com

The problem with explaining Infinity concepts lies with!.!.!.where does it start!?!?!?!?

I believe in a created cycle of things, where things start, evolve, erupt, develop, break down, explode, then start again and do it better!. The circle of life!.

The "circle" is the closest thing to describing infinity, no end and no beginning, just existence!.

The master plan would then involve making the circle bigger (longer) and more improved each time it cycles!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

Have you ever considered, EVOLUTION ! ! !
Have you ever considered, DEGENERATIVE CHANGE ! ! !
Have you ever considered, GRAVITATIONALLY INDUCED CHANGE
or any one of a thousand, other alternatives!.
I recommend, you do what several million other people have been to Inept, Lazy, Afraid or basically incapable of Learning!.
Read ! ! !Www@QuestionHome@Com

the being is devine he isnt effected by natural laws!.
good old AristotleWww@QuestionHome@Com

can u explain that a little simpler/further
a taaad confusedWww@QuestionHome@Com

Perhaps!. But what if "God" doesn't care about us!? What if he/she/it's not paying attention at all!?Www@QuestionHome@Com

"The law of causality, I believe, like much that passes muster among
philosophers, is a relic of a bygone age, surviving, like the monarchy,
only because it is erroneously supposed to do no harm!. -- Bertrand Russel
(British mathematician, 1872-1970) in Mysticism and Logic (1918)"

If cause and effect is an ilusory dualism then your problem of a 'first cause' vanishes!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

In my thinking, everything that is in this reality occurred from an initial displacement and the only way such a displacement could ever occur is due to an action of senciency whether that senciency occurred from within or from without this realm of existance!. If you believe such a displacement was from only one particle then you could say that the original sentiency was God!.!.!. however if you believe that many particles simultaneously displaced in unison at the same time universally, then this could give rise to the notion that all things sentient are really gods and no "God" as we would term "God" exists!.!.!. I favor the latter over the former as everything in reality is energy based and nothing energy based ceases to exist but merely changes form, therefore I don't believe in God or Gods (at least no different than you or I), I believe in sentiency, in reincarnation, and individuality!. If the former is true, I'm of the belief that we are all nothing more than nerve proprioceptors to God, no different than nerve proprioceptors work in our own bodies!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

Interesting!. Well according to the big bang theory, which im not an expert in so forgive me if im wrong, at the beginning of everything, before all the matter exploded into what we now know as the universe, the basic laws of science and physics broke down!. They simply didn't exist!. That would give some leeway for spontaneous generation!. I feel that some chemical reaction at the sub atomic level is responsible for our "cause"!. So maybe a divine being isn't necessary!. After all, what could possibly control EVERYTHING in the universe from before the beginning to now!? If you ask me, i'd leave this question to be answered by the physicists, not the priests!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

It is our belief that divinity is a pre-existing thing!. In an endless compass of space, there is no beginning and end!. It simply exists!. Our consciousness of beginning and end comes only in relation to some other thing!. This infinite being changes in form and the beginning and end of the form of this being is not the end of the ultimate reality!. That is why we say the physical death of a person is not the end of the person!. It only changes the state of his being!. Even when you are alive, you change your consciousness from wakeful state, dream state in sleep and a dream less state in sleep!. In happens in our existence is the microcosm of reality at the macro cosmic level!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

then what caused the divine being!? see, you could use the laws of science of cause and effect to question the divine being!.

if you say a divine being cause everything, then the laws of science isn't true since it does not apply to everything, like the divine being!.

if you say the laws of science is correct, then what caused the divine being!?

*****

then consider the possibility infinite as the answer!. like a circle!. there was no beginning!. universe just always existed!. big bang was result of collapse of a singularity that was another universe before!. these are also possibilities in addition to "uncaused cause," "prime mover," "god!." "ultimate creator!.!.!."Www@QuestionHome@Com

WAIT!
"a definite beginning" were your words, after which you said "An eternal, an infinite!.!.!."

If something is eternal and infinite, it has no beginning!.

I agree with you that it has no beginning!. "Nothingness" is not the default position; "Existence" is the default position!.

"Existence is a self-sufficient primary!. It is not a product of a supernatural dimension, or of anything else!. There is nothing antecedent to existence, nothing apart from it—and no alternative to it!. Existence exists—and only existence exists!. Its existence and its nature are irreducible and unalterable!."
Leonard Peikoff “The Analytic-Synthetic Dichotomy,”
Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology, 148

Someone once argued with me against this position, saying, "If only existence exists, then what about "things" in existence!?"

"Things" are called "existents," and existence itself is a conceptual existent, the nature of which is the IDENTIFICATION (recognition) of the fact of at least one empirical existent according to the Law of Identity!.

God could not have created existence, because He would then have had to be an existent!. Admittedly he would have been the only one, but still He would have been an existing existent!. Hence, he could not have created existence; hence, "nothingness" never existed, according to the Law of Non-Contradiction!.

That which creates, causes, an existent is already an existing existent!. No thing could have created or have been the cause of any "first existent!."

Existence, not "nothingness," becomes the default position!.Www@QuestionHome@Com