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Question: Free Will and Physics!?
OK, personally I used to consider myself to be an existentialist as I do not believe in any kind of religious system or the supernatural, therefore denying fate!. I believe in reason and common sense, basing beliefs in facts and logic!. After watching 'Waking Life', though (which I personally recommend to ANYONE), David Sosa's segment stumped me!. It's been following me for months now, and I can't refuse it!. Here's the script from the portion:
In a way, in our contemporary world view, it's easy to think that science has come to take the place of God!. But some philosophical problems remain as troubling as ever!. Take the problem of free will!. This problem has been around for a long time, since before Aristotle in 350 B!.C!. St!. Augustine, St!. Thomas Aquinas, these guys all worried about how we can be free if God already knows in advance everything you're gonna do!.Www@QuestionHome@Com
Best Answer - Chosen by Asker:
Ive already posed this argument!.
A Newtonian universe removes free-will from the equation!.
Only in a spiritualistic universe can free-will exist!.!.!. as the souls of conscious choice transcend and externally observe the physical universe!. And therefore not bound by any deterministic effects!.
Atheism actually undermines the idea of free-will!. While, ironically if not counter-intuitively, theism actually reinforces the concept!.
On a side note, I am unsure if quantum physics is solely probabilistic and lacks any determinant, predictable, calculable laws!. I am inclined to think that we simply dont yet know or understand enough of what goes on down on that level to make any real claims!. We dont observe the cause!.!.!. therefore there isnt one!? All quantum physics "probability" claim is saying is that they are ignorant but dont want to admit it!.
Even if quantum physics was probabilistic, it is so on that minuscule level of existence!. The quantum world might be random and chaotic!. But the question is, does consciousness and choice reside on that level!? Because as soon as you get onto the macroscopic world, with electricity, neurons, genetics, and biochemistry!.!.!. where does quantum probability come into play!? Is it not more likely that if consciousness exists, it does so on complex, macroscopic Newtonian levels!? All the chaos that the quantum level is unorganized with, it all comes together in Newtonian predictability on higher levels!. So even if pure randomness existed on the quantum level, where is the room for choice at levels a human brain could generate!?
I therefore conclude that either free-will is an illusion, or the soul exists, or the physical Newtonian world does not exist (existentialism, of sorts), or we are completely wrong about Newtonian physics (in which case the scientific method is fallacious anyway)!.Www@QuestionHome@Com
What was the question!?Www@QuestionHome@Com
Let's straighten one thing out first!.
Quantum behaviour is unpredictable!. But unpredictable is NOT the same thing as random!. You have no way of predicting how much change is in my pocket right now, but if you had been following me around all my life you might find that same question very deterministic!. Unpredictable is really 'we don't know enough to say'!.
Neurons fire in your brain based on an action potential!. A build-up of charge!. And though sometimes there's more than enough and sometimes not even vaguely so, there's plenty of times where it's right on the edge!. The action of a single quantum event could send it one way or another!. An event we are incapable of predicting and perhaps one that is theoretically impossible to predict!.
If you want a place for free will, that seems to be a just fine one to me!. Maybe those events are really random, maybe they're all determined by the start of the universe, or maybe they're the connection between an immaterial 'soul' and a material body!. We may know someday, but we certainly don't know now!. So you really can believe whichever works for you or just hold the only scientifically valid position which is indecision in the matter!.
Peace!.Www@QuestionHome@Com
Does anyone else find it sad that the question "What's your favorite kind of pizza!?" has more answers than this!.
Now on to your question!. I believe many individuals who study philosophy and psychology begin to suffer from what i call "Psyc Eye"!. (When you begin to think of everything as an equation and other peoples problems fall into set categories)
Now if i typed every piece of advice/knowledge on the "free will delima" i would be here until morning!. Take a step back and think like the "average person"!. I find that helps sometimes!.Www@QuestionHome@Com
There is no fate there are only choices!. Something can always be expected or probable but no matter what I do I WILL DO IT!.
If you ask me to raise my arm I have "free will" but of course there are only a general set of things I can and am able to do because of physical and mental limitations!. These are:
- I can either move my arm
- I cannot move my arm
Those are the only things I can do, that goes without saying!. My arm won't do something improbable but even if it did it would have happened, say if my arm flew off or something!. It happened and therefore it was not impossible so it was only added into my options!.
Unless you know the entirely impossible which is impossible since it would never be able to be imagined or thought of otherwise it would be possible in a way!.
I also ask that even if neurons fires messages to our brain to move we must ask what happens to trigger this!?
I feel like asking this question is like asking, "What triggered the big bang!." Is it possible to find the beginning or only even smaller fragments and parts leading up to the eventual thing!.
We can't answer this question so it IS better to ignore it or your also free to comtemplate it all you wish but the is no right or wrong answer as far as I see or at least no real way to know right now!.
"There is one thing that I know for sure, and that is that I know nothing!."- SOMEONE, lol you figure out who said it!.Www@QuestionHome@Com
Wow!. Helluva difficult question!. And you have staked out the main issues, especially with your cognizance of quantum mechanics superseding Newtonian physical causality!.
Let me essay my internal work on this issue:
We have the idea of cause-and-effect built into our brain's cognitive system!. (Immanual Kant)!. We can see and prove how this works out in simple systems like orbit and rotation of planetary objects in gravity, around more massive objects!. Or we can demonstrate force vectors on a billiards table, and in theory can predict the movements of all of the balls after either the initial break, or individual shots, based on geometry, force, friction, etc!. Thus it seems that everything that happens is both determined and predictable (which are different things, you know)!.
But our ability to demonstrate and prove determinism, VIA predictability, totally breaks down in large, complex systems like the planetary climate, weather, and individual psychology, and social movements , social psychology , politics, economics, and sociology!.
This breakdown is not because of quantum level events!. It is covered in the mathematical theories of Chaos, Complexity, and the "Butterfly Effect"!. It turns out that more and more precise measurements of different initial starting conditions, to which complex and chaotic systems are extremely sensitive, do NOT lead to more accurate predictions of how the process plays out!. MINUSCULE differences in the initial conditions manifest down the line in HUGE differences in the results!. We do not yet know why this is, but it is demonstrable with water wheels and weather system predictions, which we know are only approximate despite the best predictions!.
An approach that works intuitively comes from Lucretius, Rarem Nature (On the Nature of Things), in which he (a poet) imagined that vast quantities of atoms, in "falling" and being mechanically propelled, can somehow individually "wiggle" a little, allowing for small but incremental changes in the results of the entire system, when all of the little wiggles are added together and computed, if this were possible!.
In a practical example, you might think that any and all genetically identical life forms would act the same in a given environment, subject to the same conditions!. Experiments show that NOT to be the fact!. E-coli bacteria are all genetically identical to one another, but they somehow develop varying INDIVIDUAL responses to challenges from the environment, whether naturally or experimentally induced!. (example, varying degrees of immunity to threats from viruses)!. We don't know exactly why or how this happens, but it approximates our idea of "free will"!. When we cannot explain why one being does X, and another does Y, in same circumstances ABC, we call it free will and individual choice!.
Perhaps, I speculate, that some deep natural law is in play here, like the law (math again) which guarantees that no two snowflakes will be exactly alike, and no two sets of human fingerprints will precisely duplicate each other!. Even identical human twins do develop slight differences over a lifetime, and have been known to have one twin catch a certain disease, while the other does not, even though both might be genetically susceptible to that disease!.
And in the really deep realm of pantheistic philosophy, along the lines explored by Alan Watts, I figure that THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE is one Singularity, a living entity of which we are only small parts!. "Free will" is a matter of perspective, illusion, and social convenience!. We could not legally punish people if no one were responsible for their actions!. And people can change, despite all the forces of determinism!. Addicts can often (not always) get clean!. Criminals can often rehabilitate!. We tend to call these happenings "miracles", and we evoke "God", whom I have otherwise left out of this discussion because I don't see as how god's omniscience ~vel non~ matters in how causality plays out!.
My fingers are tired!. This is determined by physical forces!. But whether I stop here and submit this answer, or keep on typing, is really up to something I call "choice" !. Neither result is compelled!. Thanks for the question!. I hope I have helped and contributed!.
Added: There just might be something wrong with our intuitive, Kantian notions of causality!. Maybe the universe does not work in a cause-and-effect manner, but we are built to see it that way to express our particular biological abilities!.Www@QuestionHome@Com
Freedom depends on attitudes toward facts beyond control rather than mere behavior!.
In other words, we can consider the bottle half-empty or half-filled, not to choose between a bottle or a glass or a cup to consider!.
Moral freedom is nothing but a mask : our response related to either guilt or reward!. I am free right now, whatever happens!.Www@QuestionHome@Com
True free will exists!. We operate under it either consciously as a participant (not many people do that) or unconsciously, blaming others for our circumstances that 'befall' us, not realising that our own beliefs, thoughts, feelings, attitudes and actions created it!.
The Universe is like one gigantic video game where ALL possible options that could ever be thought of to 'play' or create, already exist!. What we do is attract them and manifest them into our reality!. Mainly by believing the same as everyone else; being 'sheeples' rather than throwing off the general consensus and finding our own way!. Those who DO are usually quickly brought back into line, or tortured, martyred, ostracised, judged and frequently killed!.
But now more and more people are willing to say NO! to what their reality has been in the past, and create a brand new one!. Of total freedom and free will!.Www@QuestionHome@Com
I'm sorry, I don't have the answer, but no one does really!.
What I find really puts free will into question is psychology; Everyone's behavior is basically the result of genetics and experiences (nature and nurture)!. Their parents determine their genes, and many of their first experiences, and then the experiences they have and how they react and are further shaped comes from the genes and experiences they have!.
Each person is awash in a complex intermingling of circumstances, all of which are due to choices based on other circumstances!. Even free will is controlled by the first person or people's "free will," snowballing infinately!. And to the best of my knowledge, there is no counterarguement!.
Frankly, I prefer to ignore all this, because pretending my decisions mean something makes me happy!. What matters is not to know you are in control, but to feel it!.Www@QuestionHome@Com