Position:Home>History> Does anyone recall Bernard Gertz,who shot some muggers on the subway in N.Y.C?

Bernhard (Bernie) Goetz got a lot of press, both positive and negative, with lots of self-serving politicians jumping to his defense!. It was an incident which became symbolic for a lot of New Yorkers who were tired of rising crime rates and seemingly ineffective or uncaring police who seemed to be helpless in the face of criminals!.

Bear in mind that at this time, the crime rate in NYC was estimated to be 70% higher than the rest of the country!. also, Goetz had been mugged twice in his life: once in 1970, and again in 1981, the latter time by three armed men, which left him with substantial bodily injuries!. After the second mugging, Goetz applied for a permit to carry a weapon for his protection, which was denied (this fact was trumpeted by the NRA following the subway incident)!. He proceeded to buy a weapon anyway, and actually brandished it twice to scare away would-be muggers; those incidents were well before the subway shooting!.

Goetz stood trial twice; the first trial exonerated him of criminal wrongdoing!. The second trial was a circus, with the result that Goetz was convicted of Criminal Possession of a Weapon in the Third Degree, and he served eight months in jail!.

Darrell Cabey--one of the would-be robbers-- filed a civil suit against Goetz in 1985!. In 1996, a jury found that Goetz acted recklessly and deliberately inflicted emotional distress on Cabey!. The jury awarded Cabey $43 million!. Goetz subsequently filed for bankruptcy!. He stated in 2004 that he hadn't paid "a penny" yet!.

It should also be noted that two of the four youths who attempted to mug Goetz have "graduated" to bigger things!. James Ramseur was later convicted of raping, sodomizing, beating and robbing a pregnant nineteen year old woman on a building rooftop in the Bronx, and in 1986 was sentenced to 8 ? to 25 years in prison!

Barry Allen, another of the gang, has committed two (known) muggings since the shooting!.

Bernie Goetz, on the other hand, ran for mayor of NYC in 2001 and now operates a successful business, "Vigilante Electronics"!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

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~Wikipedia does the usual partially complete story of the myth without any effort of checking the facts or the truth and makes its usual factual errors!. The trial transcripts are available if you want to put out the effort at the risk of debunking the myths!. Most people would prefer to hang onto the mythology because finding truth is too much work and the truth often destroys cherished illusions (JFK did not call himself a doughnut and Mama Cass Elliot did not choke on a ham sandwich)!. That's what put Hitler in power and that's what keeps churches alive, and yes, they do merit being mentioned in the same breath!.

The award Goetz deserved was a sentence of 8 1/3 to 25!. Instead, he got a slap on the wrist!. His story did make Charles Bronson, among others, a ton of money for the "Death Wish" series of movies!. His jury, in a blatant act of jury nullification, absolutely and totally ignored the judge's instruction, the law, the evidence of the case and the rule of law in a civilized society and convicted him of only the weapons charge!. He got one year and, by operation of NY law, served 8 months!. I suppose the jurors couldn't convince themselves to lie to themselves on that one too, having sold due process of law down the river already!. Maybe it would have taken too much courage to shirk their duty any further than they already had, especially with such compelling evidence against the poor abused defendant!. One can only wonder what they would have done had the defendant been black and had the victims been white!.

Goetz never once claimed that he thought his victims were armed!. His victims, according to all witnesses of the event, never brandished weapons and never acted belligerently nor threateningly!. Goetz did brag that he had wanted to murder them and to make them suffer as much as possible!. He made no bones about his intent to kill nor about the fact that never once was he overly threatened!. Screwdrivers were found on the victims after the incident but, as they themselves admitted, they were carrying the screwdrivers to break into video machines at local arcades!. Goetz never saw the screwdrivers or any other weapon and he admits that he was never threatened in any way, shape or form!. He just "felt" threatened!. He was, after all, white and his victims were not!. That alone is grounds to kill on an NYC subway, I suppose!. It was in Bernie's case at least!. On the basis of his "feelings" he tried to kill four people and he got away with it!.

The victims asked Goetz, according to trial testimony, for $5!.00 and Goetz assumed they were panhandling!. He pulled his !.38 and fired!. Darrel Cabey was with the others but never approached or even addressed Goetz!. He took one in the chest!. He was still moving!. When his gun was empty, Goetz tried to pump another round into Cabey saying, ""You don't look too bad; here's another," By his own admission, lethal force was not necessary at that point and, therefore, no defense of justification (self-defense) was viable at least as concerns Goetz's intentent to kill Cabey!. If Goetz himself believed his actions were justifiable, he wouldn't have run to Connecticut in a rented car and buried his gun and his clothes!. He knew he was guilty!. Too bad the jury couldn't figure it out (but 10 of them were white yuppies from the 'burbs so how could they apply sanity and reason!?)!.

I give tremendous credit to Barry Slotnick and Mark Baker for a great job of lawyering, but I am appalled with the result!. It caused me (and millions of others) to greatly lose faith in the jury system and it had lasting adverse impact on American jurisprudence!. It was as much a travesty of justice as were the OJ Simpson and Rodney King verdicts!. Lady Justice may be blind, but she really dropped the scales on those verdicts!.

I own 5 handguns and I want to keep them!. On the other hand, if we are given the right to shoot to kill each other based on unfounded and racially motivated/instigated fear, I will lead the charge in taking away everyone's (including my own) weapons in order to preserve the rule of law over vigilante "justice"!. [There is no constitutional right to own handguns or any other firearms in spite of anything Charlton Heston, John Wayne or the NRA say to the contrary!. The "right" is tied directly to the maintenance of a militia and we did away with the militia more than a century and a half ago!.] Goetz was carrying an illegal weapon with the intention to use it unlawfully!. He used it unlawfully in an unjustified and unjustifiable way, trying to take four lives without provocation!. The jury said carrying the gun was a no-no (they really had no choice on that one if they wanted to look in a mirror anytime soon) but they said it was fine and dandy for Bernie to try to kill four teenagers with the illegal weapon!. Great verdict!. Don't carry the illegal gun, but, if you do carry it, it's okay to try to kill people with it!.

Bernie Goetz was no hero!. He was a cold blooded wannabe killer who couldn't shoot straight!. The jury in the civil case got it right, but once again Goetz managed to put himself above the rule of law!. If that makes him a hero then you must really be proud of what the 9-11 pilots accomplished!. There is NO difference, although if you read the history of the Middle East as based on US government and CIA documents you will see (but maybe not understand) that the World Trade Center 'terrorists' had far more pure motives, much greater justification and were on infinitely higher moral ground than was Goetz!. So how far do you want to take vigilante justice!?

Is this answer PC!? No!. Is it factually and historically correct!? Only if you bother to read the truth!. Hey, maybe Mark David Chapman shot John Lennon because he was trying to save us from another Charlie Manson and Helter Skelter!. Should we give him a medal and cut him loose too!?

Don't bother with the thumbs down!. Rebut with evidence or leave it alone!. Ah, right!. Bernie could shoot indiscriminately without just cause, you can do the same!. Thanks for proving the point, albeit in a much more benign and safer way!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

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Yes i do, he was called the vigilante shooter back in the 1980's!. He was about to be mugged and shot his assailant!. I think it happened in the early 80's!. He was convicted on a weapons charge!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

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Actually, life following that incident was so rough for him that he often expressed regret that the other guys didn't kill him!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

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appearently some teens approached him with a screw driver demanding(money)!? im not sure but i remember that!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

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Yes!. A great American hero!.Www@QuestionHome@Com

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